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TOPIC: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue

Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30348

  • Gary Bottomley
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Had an inspection yesterday on a great house, 7 years old but some issues with an outbuilding that I said I would also review. Here is the general description that I am drafting to open the report with:
THE HOUSE IN PERSPECTIVE
This home is a two story chalet type construction with steeply sloped roof, cathedral ceiling open to the first floor living & dining room. An open stairway leads up to a balcony/sitting area overlooking the living room and stone fireplace. The second floor houses a bedroom and bathroom with shower. A full walk-out basement has provisions for finishing for additional living area and future second fireplace.
A large pole barn structure is on the property currently being used as a garage, workshop, storage or whatever. A portion of the structure has been finished and insulated separately and is being used as an apartment complete with kitchen, full bath and sleeping area. This structure, reported by the home owner, has its own septic system. The water service is fed from the same well as the house thru a separate pressure tank.
It is believed that the pole barn was originally constructed, and presumed to be part of the occupancy permit along with the house, issued by the County building department (Authority Having Jurisdiction). It is also believed that the creation of the apartment within the “garage” structure, including the electrical, plumbing, heating and waste disposal systems was done after the original construction and perhaps without the review and approval of the AHJ. This report will address some areas of concern related to the apartment within the “Garage” structure but, should not be considered a complete analysis or representation of how this mixed use structure might be evaluated by the AHJ if/and/or when they might be involved.

Two questions for the group:
1. Is the disclaimer on the apartment adequate? Here is the description from the Realtors Listing FYI: "The 40 X 80 pole building is used as garage and also has an apartment for guest or as rental." The apartment was built within the envelope of the pole barn and takes up about a third of the space.
2. The main electrical service, 200 amp, comes into the pole barn and has a 100 amp 2 pole breaker feeding the house via an underground 3 wire cable roughly 400' to the house. In my limited knowledge of electrical code and from posts and inspection classes I was interpreting the 100 amp house panel to require a four wire feed. Is that correct or is a three wire feed acceptable if the panel is properly grounded at this structure.

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

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Phone: 231 878-3569
Title:  Northwest Michigan Home Inspection Services
URL:   www.CadillacHomeInspector.com
Body: Professional Home Inspection Services for Cadillac Michigan and surrounding communities of Traverse City, Kalkaska, Houghton Lake, Manistee & Big Rapids. ...

Re: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30370

I use the term House in perspective as well but I use it just as a basic grade for the house.

Most are average quality with typical repairs.

Today's was lacking maintenance, somewhat below average.

I have about 10 different ones I use.

One in every 500 houses I may use well maintained, above average quality.

Here is an example from my report.

THE HOUSE IN PROSPECTIVE

The repairs and maintenance recommended are TYPICAL/AVERAGE QUALITY for a home of this age and location.
All homes, no matter how well maintained(WILL HAVE DEFECTS).
Please remember there is no such thing as a (PERFECT HOME).

In regards to your questions about the pole barn and electrical I would need to read and reread the post to try to answer and maybe someone else with a clearer mind can answer your post.

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Re: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30371

  • Gary Bottomley
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Dave:
Thanks for your input.
I usually don't put so much into the House in perspective section but thought this was a way to hopefully cover this aspect of the situation maybe in a round-about way! The additional comments that I included in the report were as follows:

MAJOR CONCERNS
• As noted in the “House in Perspective” section above, in this inspectors opinion, the existence of the Living Space within the confines of the Pole Barn deviates from several provisions of the Michigan Residential Code, Section R309, Garages and Carports, with some of them listed as follows:
o Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.
o Ducts in the garage and ducts penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum 26 gage sheet steel…
o The garage shall be separated from the residence (and its attic) by not less than ½ inch gypsum board applied to the garage side.
o R309: …every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency escape and rescue opening.
Again, the above, should not be considered a complete analysis or representation of how this mixed use structure might be evaluated by the AHJ if/and/or when they might be involved but merely points out some of the items that the owner and user of this structure should be aware of.


I hope this proves to be an adequate CYA approach.

After my post yesterday, the client wanted me to have a licensed electrician over to get more experienced opinion on the 3 vs 4 wire feed to the house. The electrician pointed out to me that this is not considered a subpanel as it would be within the same structure and therefor allowed to be fed with 3 wires as long as the panel was grounded properly as would be the main service panel. 

I hope this satisfies the buyer as I have sent off the report and I can move on with the next one!! By the way, things seem to be picking up here in the sticks! Had two inspections this week, have two more booked for next week and took two more calls today with real possibilities for next week also!!! That would be 6 in two weeks, almost as much as the past 4 months!!!

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Re: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30467

  • Bill Warner
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That seems a long way to go to tell the clients to perform a permit history search.

I write something like this when I run into similar situations:

Based on non-standard construction observed at time of inspection, modifications or additions to this property may have been performed without proper permits or inspections by the local building authority or municipality. If substantial work has been performed without permits, the local municipality may levy fines or require costly alterations to bring the building into legal compliance by the current owners (regardless of who did it).  At worst case they may even require the additions or modifications removed entirely.  Client should consult with property owner about this and perform a permit history search with the local municipality as necessary and before end of your inspection contingency period.


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Bill Warner
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Re: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30468

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Gary, are you a code official? I don't typically see GHI's quoting code in the report. I actually discourage it in my classes unless they are qualified to do so by the state or locality.

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Re: Modifications after occupancy & Electrical issue 14 years 7 months ago #30524

  • Gary Bottomley
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Gary, are you a code official? I don't typically see GHI's quoting code in the report. I actually discourage it in my classes unless they are qualified to do so by the state or locality.

Bill:
No, I am not a code official but I feel that it is pretty easy to read the code and recognize that the basic provisions of the code indicate that there is an inherent hazard when garages are connected to residences so it seems logical to point this out to my client.
Furthermore, I do happen to be a registered architect with over 40 years of experience in architecture and commercial construction administration and management. This was a main factor in this out of state buyer hiring me for this particular inspection so I felt I should go the extra mile with them.
Additionally, I am not getting into the inspection business to try to support a family but to just "keep the heat and lights" on while hopefully providing a service that is of value to my clients and give me a sense of accomplishment in the process. Bringing in the AHJ at this stage of the process, would kill the deal, giving no value to my client and further damaging the seller who is already loosing several hundreds of thousand dollars on this transaction!
I feel comfortable with the way I handle this situation and considering the buyer was a retired fireman who is currently doing part time fire investigations for an insurance coming, I added the following statement in my e-mail transmittal to them with my report:
I am sure with your background with the fire prevention industry that you realize reasons behind some of these safety provisions in the code and how the implementation of providing early detection and warning devices, coupled with safe storage and use of hazardous materials and operations within this structure can greatly reduce the potential future use of the facility resulting in reduction in potential problems.
His reply was as follows:
Received your inspection report, thanks for your expertise and referal of an electrician. We were  glad to find only a few minor things in need of correction.

Mission accomplished, on to the next one!!!

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Phone: 231 878-3569
Title:  Northwest Michigan Home Inspection Services
URL:   www.CadillacHomeInspector.com
Body: Professional Home Inspection Services for Cadillac Michigan and surrounding communities of Traverse City, Kalkaska, Houghton Lake, Manistee & Big Rapids. ...
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